Honda ATC help

[Masteryota]

Anyone here know much about the older 80's era ATC's?

[MASTERBATES]

i been thru alot of em, whats up freind?

[Masteryota]

I need to know if the pulse generators are interchangeable between similar models. I have a 200s, and wondered if the e and m models will fit. This one sheared the pin on the cam, damaged the cam, and broke a finger off of the spark advancer. The cam I can replace cheap(xr200 fits) but the guts to the PG are quite pricey new.

Also, do you think its worth doing a high comp piston if its rope start only? This will be going into a spiderbox, eventually.

P.S. I have 1985 ATC 200s

[MASTERBATES]

alot of the pulse sets interchange. if they look the same id say go for it. honda used to like keeping things simple for those early years simply because other hondas bikes and atcs shared parts. i had a atc110 i had some $$$ in, i had a high comp piston and cam in it, it made a big differnce in getting up to speed, but it was still a turd, due to lack of me not changing the drive spockets. i think it would work for ya tho. it would definitly be a tough as nails motor for a buggy. good luck

[Masteryota]

Cool, thanks for the reply, I been pulling my hair out since I opened the PG and parts fell out. I might just get the cam from the xr for now, and see where that lands me. Even in stock form, the 13hp is much better than the 8 the gy6 put out, and I got gears!! I'm still meddling with the recoil trying to get that figured out, dang starter dogs keep popping out, even with the springs and cage in place, thinking about taking it to the drill press and fitting them with some under size roll pins through the housing for cheap insurance that they won't come out on the trail.

I appreciate all your help, I been on the 3 wheeler forums, and the honda atv forums and got zero replies, so thanks again.:cheers:

[SLESTAK75]

That's what happens when you try those "other" forums.

[Masteryota]

I know, I know, but if I hadn't ventured to another site, I would have not found a buggy expert/builder only a few hours away. Rest assured, I will always come back home, lol.

[bear]

Hey ya gotta try to get ur info where u can!! doesn't mean ur not loyal!

[SLESTAK75]

I have to admit (deep sigh)...... I look at the others too. But I never inhaled.

[SYCARMS]

In 1985 the ATC 200 had 2 different pulse generators which do not interchange. I just had one leave my shop a few months back. It had the gen 1 pulse. I found a dealer in Kansas who had 2 on his shelf. He was the only one in the USA with it. The gen 2 pulse is a common one but the only listing is for the ATC and Big Red models.

[Masteryota]

In 1985 the ATC 200 had 2 different pulse generators which do not interchange. I just had one leave my shop a few months back. It had the gen 1 pulse. I found a dealer in Kansas who had 2 on his shelf. He was the only one in the USA with it. The gen 2 pulse is a common one but the only listing is for the ATC and Big Red models.

Do you know how to identify which one you have?? This is the exact thing I was afraid of, and according to the honda parts listings, they are all different by part numbers, but that really means little to me.

[SYCARMS]

As I remember there are only 2 type used that year, one had a 2 wire pigtail comming off it the other newer gen 2 just had 2 spades for wires to connect to. You can call Honda with the serial number and they can tell you. If not available you have the gen 1 and if available you have the gen 2. If the gen 1 have them do a search in their computer to see if any dealer has it. If gen 2 you can give me a call and I can get an after market cheaper then the Honda part.

[Masteryota]

Interesting, the actual sensor is not what I need to replace, its the rotor that bolts to the camshaft. Mine does have a pigtail for the sensor ring, so theres that. I could even get away with just the advance weights, as that is the part that is actually broken, all the rest seem ok visually. I have located a source for the cam, a cam from an xr200 fits in there, and has a bit more lift and duration than the 200s cam, and they are less than half what honda wants, so thats a win win in my book. I thought about using a bit of epoxy to reattach the part, but as it is the actual piece that advances the rotor, I don't think it would hold for very long, and not at any speed either. That spark advancer is where all the money is, the ring from honda was around $35, but its not really needed. All of the used ones I find, are listed for the 185/185s/200/200s/200e which I know the only difference between the s and e is electric start, and the difference between the 185 and 200 is just displacement. I might take a gamble and pick up a used one off ebay and hope for the best.

[x45guy]

I have a 85 250sx motor in garage
Would it have what you need?

[SYCARMS]

Different electricals.

[Masteryota]

I have a 85 250sx motor in garage
Would it have what you need?

I think the sx models had the pulse gen integrated with the charging coil, giving birth to what we know as a conventional stator, but thanks for the offer.

[Masteryota]

Welp, I gambled a bit and got a PG off ebay, and it is exactly what I needed. Also got a recoil rebuild kit, so I hope the headaches with the recoil fingers falling out are over. I will attempt to remove the cam this weekend, if I can manage to sit down for more than 5 minutes this week, and determine if I do need to replace it, or can repair it.

@ Tom, do you know which of the cams interchange in that year range? I heard the 200x cam will fit, along with the head. I know the older xr200 cams fit, but as I look for them, they are getting harder to find. If I have to replace the cam, I would very much like to spend the same or a bit more and get something that will make more power than stock.

[SYCARMS]

I could not say with 100% certainty but I believe most of the 200 models in the 80's were the same engine with different speced out parts. I checked online with a supplier of oem parts I use and 86 on down cams are not available for any model. You can usually tell by the PN if the cam design is the same but they don't even list the part numbers anymore.

[Masteryota]

Finally got the tiny little cam pin in from honda, so now I have to decide whether to keep trucking on the frame, or dig out the ATC and see if I can't get her a running. Hmmm.......

[Masteryota]

Just brainstorming out loud here, If I were to change the gear ratio to something lower(stock-3.909) would that put too much stress on the internal clutch in this engine? I am looking for jackshaft ideas and toying with the idea of making this thing grunty by dropping the ratio down to about 4.68. The jack shaft will do 2 things for me, allow for a smaller final drive sprocket, thus increasing overall ground clearance, and ensure I don't hit the shifter linkage right below the output shaft.

I am also toying with the idea of doing a hi comp piston from a 200x model(~9.6:1) and the 200x cam for some more power, but I see the clutch might start slipping with too much weight and power.

[SYCARMS]

Clutch should be fine but you will be really running high rpm's and loose your top end.

[x-bird]

I'm kicking around the same gearing/drivetrain stress ideas/issues. remember to factor in tire size changes.

[Masteryota]

Thats why I was thinking lower gear, more weight, bigger tires(not by much though), and I want retain the ability to ride 2 up without it bogging down. If I were to change to the better engine parts, it will change my power curve a little higher anyway, but I worry the internal centrifugal clutch wont be able to handle what I am throwing at it. Plus, I don't really want a 50mph buggy either, if I can hit 30, I'll be happy as long as I can spin the tires in 1st gear.

[x-bird]

I don't think 30 will be any problem, even with a significant gear change--is yours a 5 speed "semi-auto"? I've been a little concerned with mine being an internal "auto" clutch and the initial hit from getting 800 pounds moving. Mine was originally 11-38 with 22" tires. I'm planning on 25s, so top end comes up with those offsetting somewhat a change in the initial and final drive gears. initial i'm thinking of going to a 14, the final has 32s already and i may "soften" it more if I can with the second jackshaft gearing.

[Masteryota]

This one does have the semi-auto 5 speed, and my concern is the same as yours about moving something 2 to 3 times the weight of the original chassis and rider. According to the spec pages, this model came with 11/42 resulting in 3.9:1 final drive ratio. I'll stay with the 11 up front, as going any smaller on a 520 chain will result in binding and excessive wear. I am curious if there is a heavier clutch spring out there to avoid slippage, at least that was the fix for my aging clutch on my vulcan 1500, it started to slip when I hammered down in 2nd gear after 30k miles.

A change to, say 4.6:1 I wouldn't think would be a giant change, and it would be possible with the most popular jackshaft gear sizes, but I don't know too much about the internal clutches, guess I'm off to read the manual again.

Did a little digging, and found, at least for my Honda, that there are HD springs and replacement plates for a good price, if I can get mine running and ride it a bit before I tear it out of the frame, and it don't slip, I might just go with the springs, since it shouldn't have damaged the plates if it hasn't started slipping yet. Now my main concern at this part is the centrifugal main clutch, that is responsible for getting the unit moving, and that is where the most stress will be inflicted, not so much on the up and down shifting, which is handled by the conventional plate and spring set up, but I would like the insurance that I have good springs in there to start.

[Masteryota]

It's been a bit, but I am calling out for help once more on this ATC. I found out that the 'lighting coil' is AC voltage from a single coil in the generator, which brings my main query. A rectifier/regulator is easy to come by, and inexpensive, but if I were to add it to the system, would I have to also change over to a DC CDI? If so, would I be able to reuse any of the old ignition parts if I did switch out to a DC CDI?

I have very good understanding of alternators, regulators, 2 and 3 phase generator motors, but this small engine stuff makes me a bit nervous. If it isn't worth messing with, then I will just install what I have and deal with it till something better comes along down the road, but it would be nice to have a 12v DC option. As always, any help is appreciated.

Here is something I dug up, and would like some feedback as to whether both would still use an AC CDI, the first is the atc 200s, diagram, the other is a trx 200 diagram.

http://forums.atvconnection.com/attachments/atc-3-wheelers/1966d1260109801-please-help-wiring-honda-200m-atc200s1985-wiring-diagram.jpg

http://www.tradebit.com/usr/ridered-atc-atv/pub/9003/TRX200sx_wiring.jpg

[Masteryota]

I think I got a plan, I will used an ATC 200m regulator, which had electric start and battery. The diagrams are so close to each other besides the lighting coil wires going into the rectifier/regulator and then out to the battery, lights, and starter. I hope this works out like I hope, I know the LED lights I was planning on using don't tolerate voltage fluctuations very well, or AC voltage for that matter. I am assuming the AC CDI will work the same as the signal wire from the generator runs the same as the 200s.

[toomanytoys2]

Installing a regulator and a battery will have no affect on the ignition system. They are two completely separate circuits. The lighting coils are one circuit and the ignition system is another. If you think about how the ignition system works, you will see that it has to be an AC system. As the "rotor" passes by the pick up coil it produces a magnetic field that expands then collapses, allowing the main coil to up the voltage to the spark plug.

So adding a regulator to the system will not effect the ignition system. However, it will still be a guessing game as to whether the charging system will work. From what I gather, you want to run the Y wire and the DG wire to the regulator. Obviously the Dg wire is a common ground, so it will have to be decoupled and ran straight to the regulator. This is where the guessing begins. The regulator does have a dedicated ground wire going to it and the schematics of both alternators look the same. So it is a very good chance that your system will work.

I think that the worst that can happen is that you toast the regulator. The lighting coils are generally pretty beefy, so I do not think that you will harm it. Also since the ignition is separate, the regulator should have no effect at all on the ignition.

Good luck.

[Masteryota]

Thats what I was thinking myself, I was going to go cheap and get a universal 4 wire regulator, but instead, I am looking at the honda regulators for that era 200m, 200es and so on for reliability, and no guessing on where the wires will go. I had originally looked at Radioshack for the universal rectifiers some people chose to run on out boards in place of the 16v rectifiers, but they seem too good to be true and I worry about heat, this way I get the heat sink and the regulator all in one.

The concern I had when running a regulator on this system, was that I was thinking I needed all three wires from the stator to go to the regulator, but now I see honda did it with just the two from the lighting coil, and retained the AC CDI.

[toomanytoys2]

In looking at the schematics, it looks like you have single phase AC coming from the alternator Lighting coil. It shows two wires, but the one is going to ground, so it can not be a voltage carrier. Without seeing the schematics of the 3-wire regulator/rectifier, I don't think that it would properly convert the voltage.

Now if I remember right, you have the pull start model. Why are you thinking of adding a battery? Is it to keep the lights steady as the RPMs drop? If that is the case, I have some battery suggestions for you that can save you some money and are not as prone to die while sitting like a normal battery does.

[Masteryota]

Here are the s and m model diagrams, they use the same lighting coil, and route the same way. I found another diagram showing an optional DC power kit, and it uses the two yellow wires from the coil to a regulator, same as the m model. The main reason I want/need a 12v DC power source, is cooling. This engine will running hotter than stock due to a higher compression piston, and it will be behind the seats of the buggy, and I don't think it will get enough air to keep it happy, so I intend to mount a radiator fan in front of the engine to simulate airflow as if it were still on the trike frame. I was thinking louvers on the sides to redirect air, but I am more worried about being in the trails and having it overheat going slow. The other reason, is I was thinking I might add an electric reverse later down the road, and I will be dropping the stock lights for some high intensity LED's front and back.

I had toyed with the idea of an oil cooler, but where I would have to tap in the oil main, makes me nervous, and I really don't want to add any more stress to an already old oil pump.

I welcome you ideas, but I already have a new battery ready and waiting, just need to get a regulator coming soon.

[toomanytoys2]

A fan is a good idea, but a radiator fan may pull too much of a current draw. If I remember right, most fans pull in the 8-10 amps range. If you have an inductive amp meter, you could check this out. I have an 125 M atc manual and it states that the alternator max output is 10.8 amps. I would imagine that the 200 would be some where in that ball park. It may be counter productive to have your alternator running at max all the time, since it will put a drag on the engine to create that current flow.

Have you ever seen a Marine Bilge blower? They generally come in 3 or 4" diameters and they move quite a bit of air, but only pull about 2-4 amps. They would be easy to mount and you wouldn't have a exposed fan to worry about.

Just some things to think about

David

[SYCARMS]

The oil cooler would be the most effective since oil will dissipate the most heat. The cooler you want is a flow through type mounted high enough to catch air. I have one on my 210 gy6 and compared to my son's 185 gy6 without one, my engine runs 15deg cooler than his. We checked both after a hard 45 minute ride using an infrared point and shoot thermometer at the head. I'm also at 13:1 ratio with 260psi as compared to his 10:1 180psi. His head checked @345 deg. as compared to mine @ 330 deg. The power it takes for the stator to produce amperage the less power the engine has performance wise.

[toomanytoys2]

Tom is correct on the oil cooler. Air just blowing on metal is a much poorer method to remove heat, then using a liquid to transfer heat. I know, I have three older VWs and each one is bigger the 2000 cc. The first thing that we do when hopping them up is to add an external oil cooler. In fact on my daily driver VW (2110cc) not only do I have an external oil cooler, but it also has a fan on the cooler and I have ducting to it to bring in fresh air.

The thing about air cooled engines is that they get rid of most of their heat through the heads, not the cylinders. However, the manufactures have only designed the heads to remove the heat of a stock engine configuration. So if you are producing more heat (HP), or have less air flow, you have a problem. If you can cool down the oil, then use the cooler oil to transfer the heat from the head, you can get by the manufacturing limitations.

So you may want to examine both sides of the heating issue you will face. Stagnant air around the engine, and cooling the oil. I really don't think that a good quality cooler will put much drag on the oil pump. At least not in comparison the oil passages in the engine.

[Masteryota]

The cooler you want is a flow through type mounted high enough to catch air.

I was looking at something like a 4 or 5 pass power steering cooler with a small fan if I did add one. The part that made me uneasy about it, is the only place to tap in is between the oil pump and crank main bearing, although it has ball bearings instead of flat bearings, I was still a bit nervous about the location. If I could tap in at the head, I would be more comfortable doing so.

I see what you are saying about the stator robbing performance as well, perhaps I will still do the regulator on a smaller scale, as I will need DC for the fan motor and lights. The fan I was looking to run was ~7A draw, which is pretty significant on a small engine.

[SYCARMS]

If your engine has an oil filter there is usually a plugged taped hole to run one line to which would be the pressure side the other line would empty into the oil sump of engine. If your engine has the big plug at the bottom of case with an oil screen, maybe one of the universal oil coolers used on the gy6 would work.

[Masteryota]

This one does not have a filter, per say, but it does have the large drain plug at the bottom with a screen. I will post pics in the AM of the oil galley the ATC guys tap into, its on the R/H outer case half, and I do see a cast plug in that galley, but it doesn't look threaded. I will look closer at the case for additional oil galleys, but thats the one they opt for normally.

Does the GY6 oil cooler have a pump built in? Or am I missing something related to the large plug at the bottom of the case?

[SYCARMS]

On the gy6 the drain plug with the screen is removed and replaced with an adapter, the adapter has two hoses one of which runs from the pressure side of the adapter to the cooler, the other line comes out of the cooler and returns to the discharge side of the adapter. The screen taken from the drain is used in a small cartridge like enclosure to trap any debris just like before. I think this is what will work on your engine since I believe the drain cap is the same on all Honda's at least the CT models can use the same cooler.

[toomanytoys2]

Master

I don't know if you have a manual or not but you should check out this site.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

[Masteryota]

Master

I don't know if you have a manual or not but you should check out this site.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

I do have a digital and printed copy of the factory Honda Motor Corp. manual already. Out of curiosity, why?

On the gy6 the drain plug with the screen is removed and replaced with an adapter, the adapter has two hoses one of which runs from the pressure side of the adapter to the cooler, the other line comes out of the cooler and returns to the discharge side of the adapter. The screen taken from the drain is used in a small cartridge like enclosure to trap any debris just like before. I think this is what will work on your engine since I believe the drain cap is the same on all Honda's at least the CT models can use the same cooler.

I found some of the GY6 coolers with the plug adapter, the reason I ask, is there pressure on one side of the plug? I just thought it was a drain plug :dunno:

[SYCARMS]

That particular plug the oil circulates, this is why you have a filter screen.

[Masteryota]

I did some digging and found an oil circuit diagram buried in my shop manual, and yes, there is flow around the plug and screen, which leads me to my next question. Is there a place to buy just the plug adapter without the expensive cooler included?

[SYCARMS]

I haven't been able to find one. Those engines never had a cooler and when they started putting coolers on them the new cases were modified with an oil port boss.

[Masteryota]

I haven't been able to find one. Those engines never had a cooler and when they started putting coolers on them the new cases were modified with an oil port boss.

You are right, and I am almost to the point of saying screw it and running without a cooler for now. I have been on the trike sites for days, and the amount of riders running coolers are about 10% overall, and since I'm not running some crazy compression ratio, as long as the jetting is not too lean, I should be ok, provided I am using good oil and change it pretty frequently. The good part is either way I decide to add a cooler, I can easily make the mods once the engine has been installed.

I got the cylinder back today, and might stay late at work tomorrow to complete the reassembly.

[SYCARMS]

I would still monitor the engine temp. You don't want it over 375 deg.

[Masteryota]

I would still monitor the engine temp. You don't want it over 375 deg.

As paranoid as I am about everything, I will be watching the temps like a hawk. Like I said, if the GY6 cooler adapter was available separate, or didn't cost a kidney, I would go that way, as it the least invasive, and easily converted back if need be.

[toomanytoys2]

Just curious, how do you plan on monitoring the temps. Are you going to use a Cylinder head Temp gauge, or is there a place you can tie into for oil temp?

[Masteryota]

If I add an oil cooler, there will be a number of areas to tap a gauge in. I could add a gauge now where the taps for the would be cooler would go. For the first few test runs, I will carry my infared point and shoot gauge, if I'm not comfortable with the temps on open land, then that will seal the deal on adding a cooler. I could use a head temp gauge, as you mentioned, but adding that to the long list of things needed might be overzealous.

If and when I add a cooler, I will no doubt add a temp and pressure gauge to it.

In all reality, I will likely bite the bullet, and add the cooler taps while I have the case apart, when else would as good a time as now.

[x-bird]

you guys have me worrying now ... I'm thinking about looking up temperature sensitive tape and using that to see where it's running.

[toomanytoys2]

You might check out Pro Circuits temp strips, I use them on my dirt bikes.

[toomanytoys2]

Tom,

Just curious, why did you mention the max temp to be 375 (I'm assuming that is head temp). Is it a detonation issue, or is that where the head will start to drop the valve seats?

[Masteryota]

I have heard that temp before from some clone kart racers, I think it either has to do with detonation or oil breaking down.

[SLESTAK75]

I have been mulling over the posibility of wrapping some copper tubing around the cylinder/head and connecting it to maybe a heater core or some sort of smaller radiator and either running a pump or maybe putting a one way valve in the line and allowing convection currents to move the water.

[x-bird]

likely oil breakdown as "spike" internal combustion temps, especially around the piston crown/valves are much higher

[Masteryota]

I have been mulling over the posibility of wrapping some copper tubing around the cylinder/head and connecting it to maybe a heater core or some sort of smaller radiator and either running a pump or maybe putting a one way valve in the line and allowing convection currents to move the water.

The GY6 engines have multiple areas to tap in for a oil cooler, one that I liked best was the replacement drain plug adapter and cooler unit. That would be by far the easiest, also, CKAU added a cooler circuit in his build thread from a blank plug near the head.

I decided to pull the trigger on an ATC 350X factory cooler with the hard lines off ebay for a cool $25 shipped. Another win for factory Honda parts.

[SLESTAK75]

See..I'm talking about trying to water cool it.

[SLESTAK75]

I like the look of that Honda cooler though. Just gotta figure out how to connect it.

[toomanytoys2]

I know that in the older air-cooled VWs, when the head temp gets too high, the aluminum head expands more then the steel valve seats and the seats can start coming out of the head. Unfortunately there is no know correlation between head temps and oil temps. Basically the rule of thumb for VWs is that when your oil temps hit 260 degrees, you pull over and let it cool down, also when the heads hit 400 pull over.

One thing to note is that if you use a point and shoot thermometer, with the engine off, the reading of your CHT will be considerably lower then in a hard running environment.

[Masteryota]

See..I'm talking about trying to water cool it.

That would be cool(pun?), but way too complicated, and in the end, more expensive than adding an oil cooler. Not to mention, grossly inefficient without the liquid actually being in the head and cylinder.

I weighed other options as I didn't feel real comfortable with drilling into the case, but it seems pretty straight forward, and a few of the trike guys have done it and swear by its design.

I thought the same thing about the 350x cooler, great price in my book, considering I got the lines and fittings with it, and very little fin damage. I'm already thinking of where on the swing arm I should mount it, and yes, I will still have a small ~100 CFM fan running on it at all times.