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Did you try the trick of running the tread backwards to scoop the sand under the tire?
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The tread is also less aggressive that way and you may be able to keep those 25's on the two-seater.
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The problem with the 25" bear claws isn't that they are to aggressive, they are just so d@mn tall they kill the gear ratio. With a stock clutch, it doesn't have that quick snap off the line with those monster tires that you need to take on some of the sand hills where you can't get a run. I went ahead on mounted up the 24's on a spare set of wheels this afternoon. Even though the side of the tire says they are only 1 inch shorter they are actually more like 2.5 inches shorter than the other pair so it should have a lot more low end.
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How aggressive the tread pattern bites into ground is just as important as how tall they are. If you ran 27" slicks on the back, you would have no problem ramping up the tire rotation speed. Those of us running small 150cc 4-strokes in the sand have found some tricks that make them go where you would not believe. Just look at the tread I used to run on my Yerf in 22x11-8 tire.
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I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you. This is no different that a drag car. What do you do to make a drag car leave? You gear the h*ll out of it and if running a slush box, use a high stall converter. This is the same principle, adding the taller tires raises the gear ratio which would make it faster on a flat road but makes the bottom end soggy. since this Ody is running the stock clutch it doesn't have the luxury of launching at 4200 rpm like my Pilot, therefore in a situation where I cant get a run at a steep sand hill & factor in the additional weight of the two seater, it is hard to get into the power band quick enough to pull the long steep sand hill.
I understand what you are driving at by reversing the tires to take some of the bite away so they will spin easier, but then I am right back to the same issue I had with the bald tires, backing down the hill because it spun out. Nice looking Yerf, I ran basically the same thing on my daughters Yerf, 22x12x10 sand tires. The problem we had with them was just like this Ody it raised the gear ratio so much it didn't have enough bottom end to turn them here at 5500' and made the Yerf the gutless wonder. This is the only pic I could find that showed the sand tires on the yerf, but I ran it with a uni, and exhaust upgrade as well. On small hills it pulled great but when we headed out to the bigger hills it was useless. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/HPIM4072.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/HPIM4186.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/HPIM4187.jpg |
Think of this way: If the tires do not hook up with the ground, they spin easier than if they grabbed and did not let go. The amount of traction your tires provide definitely can change the sizing requirements.
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I understand what rarerat is saying and have to agree. My Joyner 650 has 25" mudlites and no problem but when I run the 27" Duro Strikers which are much less agressive it killed the performance so much that hills I was once able to climb I now can't even when I tried to dump or slip the clutch it just run out of power going up just as if I were starting out in 2nd gear.
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If your Stykers were not able to break loose and spin, I would agree they too tall for your gearing or they are still too aggressive for that desired height. I don't argue that tire height changes your gearing - In places where the tire can grab, a tall tire will kill your performance. However if the tire is less aggressive and you are trying to spin through material you can run a taller one than one that does not spin. Look at the variety of sand tires available as an example: Not only can you choose how many paddles you are running on each tire, but also how deep the paddles extend.
I have now run six different sand tires and four different trail tires on three different size buggies. My 650 included 23" shaved 8-paddle Kendas. The 650 was able to overpower the paddle grip and sink too fast, yet this became a very good tire for my 250's. I was able to get a good deal on some 26" ITP Dunestars and these were a little too tall or aggressive for the stock 650 but did well on modified 650's. When I ran these tires on a modified 250, I could use them in low range but shredded CVT belts due to the torque in high. I now have three sets of 20" paddles (GT Dune Slider II, GBC Sand Shark and ITP Sandstar) for the 250's which limit my clearance, but have eliminated CVT stress issues. The 150 was geared down very low limiting top speed to 30mph with 22" tires - It had no problems running the 22" Pro Wedge II because they were not aggressive and I can assure you it would have done worse with the 20" paddles I run on my 250's. Interspersed between my experimentation with sand tires, I also ran different trail tires. The stock turf tread 20" tires on the 150 did surprising well on sand but limited climbing ability. 22" Kenda Pathfinders will work in sand on 250's when aired down, but dig less when reversed. The equivalent tread in a 25" do the same on 650. The 25" Kenda Bear Claws are too aggressive for the 250 CVT's in sand whether running forward or backward, but are less stressful on the belts with the tread reversed. The 250's OEM 22" tire is a fun tire to rip around on flats, but doesn't have enough floatation or traction to make useful anywhere else. At any time I have two 6' high stacks of tires in the garage and typically will take one of those stacks with me to go ride and experiment with different combinations of front and rear, tread orientations and pressures. I am aware that terrain conditions will also dictate tire choice and that is another reason for the number of tires I own since I will ride in anything from muddy puddled trails to rock climbs to loose bottomless sand. |
Rarerat, how come you never geared the spiderbox up with the 39T sprocket, or did any CVT mods? probably would have gave it enough power to tackle most of the hills then.
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Took the family out for a ride this morning and all had a great time. My wife is really loving the side by side and I was able to get this short video of her & my youngest hitting this sand hill. She spun out & didn't make it the first attempt & had to back back down and hit it again. That is pretty much where I started the short video.
Here are a few pics, It was a beautiful day this morning before the winds picked up. It is sure pretty country out in the Rio Puerco where we have the privilege to ride.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/100_0193.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/100_0194.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/100_0197.jpg |
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couldn't resist .... ;) |
Nice climb, I see the tires helped!!! You've managed to get the perfect buggy sizes for the family to all have fun. I'm still soooo jealous, sweet rides. Your oldest daughter's body language is saying "come dad let's go already"
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I'm jealous of your playground. Nice vid and buggy looks and sounds great.
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Extremely nice job!!! I wish my work area looked as nice and clean.
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The Buggies look great Rarerat, it helps to have a nice place to ride them at also!
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Thank you guys...
Solved the front ground clearance & soft front end issues with a nice used pair of 20.00 ebay Snowmobile shocks. http://www.ebay.com/itm/170859855022#ht_500wt_1180 Here is a comparison of the new shock to the stocker http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...0713121459.jpg here they are installed. I have ridden it since bolting them on and couldn't be happier. They have much better rebound than the originals and the extra ground clearance is nice, no more plowing with the frame. :lol: http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...0713121514.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...0713121533.jpg Also welded up the end of the damaged TJ Pilot Powerbloc clutch and ordered a 4200 rpm spring for it. I installed it on the side by side and took it for a ride. Yee Haw.. what a difference!! :party: |
Good stuff, it's crazy because I was looking at those same shocks for the rear of my spiderbox (I have blasters on it now, but they could be a little less stiff). How do you think those snowmobile shocks would do on the rear of the spiderbox with a 200lb person?
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I think they would probably work well. I have the preload set to the firmest setting now but you could easily soften them up for your spider box. I used to run a set of TRX shocks on my daughter's Spiderbox and liked them with me riding it, but they were to stiff for her weight. I finally removed them and used a pair of 350 Ody front shocks exactly like what I just removed and I think they work very well on her Yerf. You might consider trying something similar to them on yours.
These are the TRX shocks when they were on it.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/HPIM3634.jpg And with the 350 Ody front shocks on the rear.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/HPIM4072.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...R/HPIM4413.jpg |
I have a pair of TRX rear (mono shocks) on the back of the wifes Spiderbox- they look just like the shocks (Ody350) you have on it now.
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These shocks are 13", I noticed your's have an adjuster where these don't. I did change the angle with different brackets because the stock location made the swingarm at too much angle.
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Cool, good info guys... The blaster shocks I have work great, and I know I can change the springs on them. Do yo guys by any chance know where to get different springs that may fit?
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Speedway sells both 1-5/8" & 2"dia. springs of different lengths and poundages. I pulled the springs on mine just to verify my 2" would fit-all my spares are much heavier rated than the ones that came on the shocks.
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Great info Thanks, I didn't realize speedway had them. |
I just read this entire thread and I'm very impressed. Great idea, planning, and execution. I like the way you really documented the build process and then continued with letting us know how you fine tuned everything.
Your garage looks great and the classic cars are just money. Glad to hear your family is loving them! Congrats! |
Thank you for the kind words Superman
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Rarerat... Now that you have your daughters machine completed and your side by side...What's your next project?
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Thank you KTM, I'm probably done until this winter and then I'd like take a stab at building some new front long travel front A arms for my Pilot. I got a great deal on a set of DC rear upper shock mounts so I think I will go with Fox Airs front & rear but I want to try build my own +4 A arms. I hate to pull it apart until this winter, just too much great riding weather right now.
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I know what you mean about the weather. Right now we're getting into the good time of the riding season here too...Oct is my favorite time to ride, I like heading up to WI to see the changing of the colors. :cheers:
LT will help you a lot with your "double wide" :lmao: in reguards to clearance. When I first read this build, that was a concern I saw and you were aware of it...How wide is your front end now? Are you going to make it wider with the addition of the LT or move your a-arm mount points inward so not to increase width? Up here width is a concern, we have ATV parks and DNR trails and they regulate size...I'm also limited in width in the racing series I run in...When we built my LT front for my Pilot, we had to be careful with that since we completely moved the mounts and rebuild the lower front frame area... Loved this project of yours from the start though...How has power been with 2 adults? |
I would like to swap over to an A arm front end on thie side by side sometime in the future also, but it's my Pilot that I would like to concentrate on next with the LT front end. Currently it has a completely stock suspension and although it is light years ahead in technology compared to the J arm front end on the side by side, the whoops out here are deep enough to loose a truck in. :lol:
The side by side runs pretty good with 2 people in it, better than one would would think. I recently installed a Power bloc clutch on it I pulled from the TJ Pilot and it really woke it up on the bottom end. This buggy will be a continuous work in progress but honestly I couldn't be happier with it. It does everything I wanted it to right now the way it is, but like anything else there is always something to be improved. :) Probably the next thing on it will be new rear shocks. |
OK, you'll love the LT on your pilot...I agree, the Pilot was ahead of its time back when it was produced but now...well it's nothing special and when you look at the suspensions of what is being produced, it's really out dated...
I like you approach to this with fabbed a-arms. Are you going to try and leave your stock frame alone or will you be doing some hefty modifications on it? I got a little crazy with the frame mods on mine but more than happy with the results. I started out with just modiest plans and using parts I had on the shelf..well, you know how that went...Once you start cutting, bending and dreaming...there are no limits...:banana: |
Took the family out for a ride this evening. My daughter invited her friend so they drove the side by side, my wife was in the Pilot and my 7 year old and I were in the Yerf. It's been a while since we had the Yerf out but she ran great and we all had a great time. Her friend had never been in a buggy before but I think she had a great time.
As we were headed home I snapped these pics, the first while my 7 year old was still driving and the rest once we stoped after almost hit the tree. :eek: She learned a valuable lesson about when off roading you need to keep your eyes on the trail. She tried to look at my picture and the trail turned. :biglaugh: http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...21851_0001.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...1851a_0001.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...21852_0001.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...1852a_0001.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...1851b_0001.jpg |
Great Pics. figured you've been having too much fun lately to post much. LOL I love the bumper sticker on the yerf. )))
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Thank you. I haven't been around too much lately.
lol... I got the sticker for her when she laid the yerf on it's side with me in it down in the Rio Puerco a year or so back. |
Great vid
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Havent done much with the buggies for a while, but my oldest & i went riding this morning for a few hours. She took this short video of my trying to climb windmill hill. The sand is so darn deep & tore up it took everything that poor Ody had to pull the hill.
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Wow that was impressive. That was no little hill either. I wonder how it would have done with paddles on it?
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Thank you Tom. The hill is good size, but the sand is so darn tore up and loose even my daughter's Ody took 4 trys for her to pull the same hill with Mud lites on hers. We haven't had rain in like 50 years out here ;) :biggrin: and it's so dry there is just no traction. It would be fun to try a set of paddles to see how much more bite they provide.
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Taxi!
Nice photo montage, whered you get that yellow chevy taxi??? lol:joke:
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Thank you. lol.. I picked that one up in Florida about 15 years ago. It was a 2 owner Oklahoma car that made it's way all they way out there just so I would have to drive farther to go pick it up. :ack: :lol: It's the usual story.. I owned another 69 Z that was the twin to it back in the mid 80's. I sold it, regretted it, saw the prices starting to sky rocket and knew if I waited to too much longer replacing it would be out reach so I sold off a 39 Ford Coupe street rod I had built & bought this one. Since getting into these buggies I have almost lost interest in the cars, ;) they mostly just sit. |
Yeah, but nice lawn ornament!
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Nope she never sleeps outside, more like a garage ornament. :biggrin:
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Wow it's been almost a year since I have updated this thread. She's still alive and kicking & aside from one flat tire the buggy has been trouble free. Only changes I've done are I made a hood for it and robbed the head lights I had on the Yerf Dog. :o
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psb0072c63.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psb09679e7.jpg |
The buggy looks great, but what happened to your shop?:eeek: It used to look spotless and organized but now looks all cramped and disorganized.:suspect: Let me know when you are ready to clean up and I'll drive over your way and help you clean it up. I'll bring a trailer and haul out that yellow junk car taking up most of your space.:biggrin: That is the least I can do for a fellow buggier.:banana:
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Thank you. I know it's terrible isn't it. lol.. I wish you would come haul that junk car out of here as I'm kind of tired of tripping over it. :lol: You can call me when it'd finished & I'll get it out of your way. :) |
:biggthumpup:Oh I'll gladly come and get it out of your way and you won't have to come all this way to get it out of my way since I have plenty of space that needs to be filled up.:laughing:
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Last IIRC seeing it was on a rotis and in primer ...someone's been busy! Since you have soooooo much free time, i'll ship my SD over and you can do make my '75 quarter fit the 73 and paint her to boot!
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Here's a quick trip down memory lane.. Final mock up.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps4470d55d.jpg back on the rotisserie for paint on the bottom.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps8d0107d1.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps11e580a7.jpg Back off the Rotisserie for final blocking & color on the shell http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psff8d4a00.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps897cb1dc.jpg 3 coats of Butternut Yellow Base... http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psc29376f3.jpg 3 wet coats of Clear.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps95bcaee9.jpg Masked the car for the Rockers & tail pan black out.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psecfeb2c4.jpg 3 coats of satin Black... http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps4d18bbc2.jpg Shot the deck lid and sprayed a little Spatter paint in the trunk.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps31827482.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps51c4eec7.jpg Reassembly of the rear tail lights bumper etc.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps8ebd967c.jpg Jammed the doors.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psd2e274a7.jpg Hood, doors, fenders, valances etc.... in Butternut Base... http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psf999403e.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps04cec574.jpg Mocked up the fenders & upper valance to lay out the stripe... http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps60f05398.jpg fenders etc.. back off for a masked for a little Black base.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps5d772f24.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps47660b2d.jpg removed the tape and plastic.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps3da6b95d.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps3ff7ee4a.jpg |
Back under the car with rebuilt springs...
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps0d634995.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps76d2abe5.jpg Back on 4 wheels.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps3771cf59.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psd0b11d6d.jpg Blasted & painted the radiator support, inner fenderwells & heater motor cover.. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps022fdf3c.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps78602772.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps2dcaf1ca.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psa57f53da.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps6c1b34e1.jpg http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...psc90b6872.jpg Wow I'm tired just posting these pictures.. Yes sir I have been busy.. :biggrin: Ship me your TA I would glad to do the work for you. :) |
Really nice work Rare. If i could afford to ship it, i could afford the paint! Came so close to completing it about 10 years ago, then I moved. At least i had the foresight to lay on about 4 extra coats of primer (blocked between each). while it has held up, it all needs to come off because of age and contamination. I was gearing up to finish her again when the MGA fell in my lap, followed by the buggies ....
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Thank you X.
I hear you I was about 3 months into this build, I had already torn the entire car down, replaced both rear quarters, outer wheelhouses, trunk drop off's & the tail panel, when the first buggy followed me home. At that point this project came to a screeching halt. :o I think the car sat on the rotisserie for a full year before I even moved the car. Then I got the wild hair I needed a Pilot, so I did a 65 Mustang, quarters, floors, cowl, doors & a color change for a fireman to pay for the Pilot, all the while never touching this car. Then spent another 3 months & emptied my bank account building this new shop. Once into the new building I would work on it an hour or two here & there but mostly did other projects that pay the bills & built two FL 350's . I guess it was about the end of February I finally got back on the car pretty regular and it's progressed fairly quickly. The biggest obstacle lately has been finding the extra cash to buy the parts I need to keep moving forward. A little at a time & she will come back together..:) |
What power plant goes in it. Nice work it should be showroom when your done. Sometimes on a project like that you have to step away , give it a break and do something else for a while. One thing for sure is they don't make them like they used to. For one they had style as compared to the new ones today.
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That is one hell of a motor. The 396 was known to throw rods and spin main bearings. The story I got from a book I have is Ford developed that engine back in 1963 for Nascar which it used a double overhead cam with a 50" timing chain which was a flop. Only 500 production cars were made with that plant. I had one in a 67 galaxy although not original in that year since Ford had already scrapped that design. Chevrolet bought the rights for that motor from ford and thus the RAT motor was born. Now back to being young and dumb. I purchased this 67 Galaxy with a huge engine and 4spd in like 1971 for $300.00. The engine run but was told it needed cams and a chain. I forked out 500.00 for the cams chain and gaskets and repaired it. It was a beast until one evening after being warned by a friend of a friend who nobody thought knew anything since although he raced every weekend was always working on the car, that I was over revving the motor. Well being he was about 10 years older and @ 17 I thought like most my age he was too old to know anything, I did not take his advise. One night I spun all the main bearings tearing up the crankshaft pretty badly. Well I did not have the money to rebuild the motor but was offered a rebuilt stock 428 CJ in exchange for that motor which was lunched. I thought the guy really liked me and felt sorry for me so I jumped on it. It was about 1978 when I was at the Chicago Rod and Custom show where I run into to this person who showed about 6 cars and low and behold there right next to his Shelby Cobra was this familiar looking engine with a for sale sign on it. It was stated that only 500 were ever in production with a description of all that was done to it. As I was talking to this gentleman I found out that it was the engine I traded for the 428CJ. The firm asking price was $9500.00. Wow was I shocked. I never felt I was taken advantage of since I traded an engine which was useless for another killer motor that run for a long time. Now it may not have been that very moment but somewhere in that timeframe I come to realize that hey maybe this guy who told me in a rather harsh way I was over revving the engine knew what he was talking about, since Don Schumacher has a pretty good record going in the NHRA. So I too went through a time which I knew everything. I now have a son who is 17 and it is like a flashback of my earlier years.LOL
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If we could only turn back time, oh man the things we would have done different.. lol... Very cool story about your Galaxy sounds like a neat car and I'll bet it was a blast with the CJ & 4 speed. :biggthumpup: Wow i'll bet you could buy a nice vaction home off the sale of that DOHC BB if you had it today.
I feel so very fortunate to have grown up in the era when we did. These cars were everywhere back then and very affordable. Cars had presents & character, back then & you could spot one coming at night and know what it was from the sound and the placement of the lights. On weekends we spent our days in the garage and the nights out prowling the street looking for the next squirrel, then it was off to mine road. :D It was never like those lame fast & furious movies portray. :eeek: I would be lying if I said I never got in a street light to street light battle, but 99.9% of the time we took it out of town and were never weaving in and out of traffic like the idiots do today with these fart can cars. I know every generation thinks there "time" was the best but I really do wish kids of today could experience just a little of what we all had back in the 70's & early 80's before everything got so d@mn "safe". I'm sorry, I'll step down off my soap box now. :lol: |
Your 100 percent right, back in our days of no seat belts, laying on the rear package shelf looking out the back window, lead paint, ethyl 101 octane, asbestos house siding, non organized sports when every game was either the world series, Stanley cup or super bowl. I tell my son that I would never trade my childhood for his for today everything is so realistic to where kids cannot be kids where we had much less but used our imagination. Once upon a time you were old if you had diabetes or cancer it was very rare in the young and asthma was so rare back then as compared to today. I can go on and on but I know exactly what your saying for it appears we grew up in about the same time frame.
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