Heims questions?

[TheFauxFox]

Hey y'all. I've been seeing people use Heims joints as replacements on the rear swingarm, and I've seen a handful using them instead of ball joints. HOW DOES THAT WORK? LOL

Do you bypass the "tab" on the a-arm end altogether, drill and tap a hole for the heim rod to go through and bolt the open eye hole through the spindle??

help pls. ^_^

[jwilson645]

Here's a really good thread on the subject.

http://www.buggymasters.com/forum/sh...t=heim+upgrade

[SYCARMS]

The important thing to remember when going to heim joints is going with the proper spec joint for the application. Many have posted places with cheap to buy heims but when you look at the specs they are not designed for front end steering use. The weak link in a heim joint system will be the bolt. Some have bought the cheap heims and used a grade 8 or higher bolt which is the complete opposite.

[TheFauxFox]

SYCARMS, I'm not using it for steering? I'm using it on the a-arm to spindle joints. Unless that is considered steering???

[SYCARMS]

My mistake, meant to say they are not designed for front end (or) steering use.

[Masteryota]

That is considered steering. I'm confused. You start off with saying swing arm, and then ask about the a-arms. What end of the buggy are you working on??

Using heims for the swing arm is a relatively new-ish idea, and a few guys have done them. I chose not to based on the availability of the bushings recently, and only a few hours of tested ride time. Although X put serious stress on his set, I am still not entirely convinced. Ckau just put his together with the heims, but have not heard good or bad yet.

If you are still on the front end, then you need to find some chromoly heims in the 1/2" variety, and preferred is a set of high misalignment, or super swivel ends in case of future upgrades. Keep in mind, you will need to cut off the old ball joint tabs and drill into the a-arms and add either a bung or pipe through the a-arm to support the joint. Welding a nut on the outside of the arm will break off and likely tear a portion of the arm off too. There is quite a bit of math involved with doing this mod, you will need to extend the tie rods by the same length added with the heims, along with drilling out the spindle to accept the bigger bolts.

As you stated before, you don't/can't weld, so I recommend buying the BD joint set. It is a bolt in upgrade with minimal changes to the hardware and geometry on the front end.

[TheFauxFox]

Yeah, I may just make it easy on myself and do the HD ball joint set, but thats too easy

I can DEFINITELY drill and we have a nice drill and vice so at least I can do that
I think I may be able to do this, but I DEFINITELY need to get the math right! Ball joints look like they are failing (one bolt is CRACKED DOWN THE MIDDLE LOL) and I have pics coming in 5 mins on my 10,000,000,000 questions thread

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by TheFauxFox

Yeah, I may just make it easy on myself and do the HD ball joint set, but thats too easy

I can DEFINITELY drill and we have a nice drill and vice so at least I can do that
I think I may be able to do this, but I DEFINITELY need to get the math right! Ball joints look like they are failing (one bolt is CRACKED DOWN THE MIDDLE LOL) and I have pics coming in 5 mins on my 10,000,000,000 questions thread

This mod is not for the novice buggy owner. I suggest if you want to do the mod, use a drill press with a machinists vise attached to it. This way you get the same angles on all 4 a-arms.

I think you need to use the search function and really take a look at what Ckau, metalstudman1 and others did with the heims, and pay close attention to the attention to detail they did while doing the change over. I'm not saying you can't do it, or shouldn't, but I don't want you getting over your head. Once you drill the holes in the a-arms, there really isn't any going back. Plus, you need a welder, or know a competent welder that isn't going to charge you a body part to make this happen.

[TheFauxFox]

LOL. Not sure why you would have to weld? The only way I could do that mod is give the heim a longer bolt, thread it through the a-arm, and put a few nuts on the other end, but I'm not sure that A) That would be structurally safe and B) It would "sit tight".

[SYCARMS]

Your idea will not be strong enough. As Masteryota said you will have to weld a bung then thread the hiems into the bung with a locking nut to keep it secure.

[TheFauxFox]

The question is, can I get a bung with internal AND external thread? If I can, than I can thread it through the a-arm, but a nut on the end, and vice versa with the INTERIOR and the heim joint.

Edit: Just realized if I got someone to weld this http://speeddealercustoms.com/store/...s-516-x-1long/ into the a-arm, I could do what you said and just use a nut on the opposite end of the heims bolt. I was thinking that all bungs had an end cap, so I would have to find other means of securing the actual BUNG. Thanks! I'll some more research later and let you know what I plan on doing.

[SYCARMS]

I don't know of anyone who sells bungs for this application. It will have to be fabricated. Some sport ATV's have this design.

[x-bird]

structurally, putting any type of bolt/bung through a round tube then attempting to "bolt-lock" it in place is just asking for failure. round tubing isn't made for that type of application. if you look at the roll cages---oops, i mean brush guards LOL .. of some bolt-together types, you'll see concave washers under the bolts and on the opposing tube end to prevent crush and provide a flat surface for the bolt to seat on. with the amount of movement and stress the a-arms see, even that isn't going to last long imho.

"point two" is the high misalignment masteryota mentioned. heims along in certain areas do not provide enough turning angle unless specific misalignment spacers are added in, which can affect strength. been there done that and redone it again to get it right. doing the math to find the room to do it with the correct hardware isn't something to dive into with no background/experience in it.

unless your going hardcore rough riding, stick with the BD upgrade kits. they're proven for moderate to heavy trail riding. rock crawling type racing, different story.

If you can find a welder, you do not want the recessed bung. the correct one will have threading out to the end. it gets welded into the a-arm, the bung threads in and is lock nutted as mentioned. on the spindle end, either two vertical tabs wide enough for the heim ball plus cone spacers, or a horizontal bolt-through with high misalignment spacers. the latter mounting positioni tried and ditched because i kept bending/shearing grade 8 bolts and crushing the misalignment spacers. No support at the bolt head/top of the heim.

[x-bird]

To illustrate ...here's a version I was using at one point. steering arm/tie rod junction on left of picture has horizontal mount. To get the needed travel, misalignment spacers made it a very tall "stack" with all the stress on the through bolt. A-arm junction to the right has vertical. It used to be horizontal, but kept failing. The horizontal steering mount also kept failing, initially with grade 8 bolts--which took out other parts, so i converted to aluminum to actually force it to fail more easily to protect the steering arms and misalignment spacers. It just failed too easily then LOL ... That has also since been converted to a vertical setup with larger heims and mount tabs supporting the through bolt on both sides.

[TheFauxFox]

Know what, X-Bird? This morning I was just thinkin this project would a little bit too complex, but what you just said was the final nail in the coffin. I agree. Maybe I'll do it a year from now, but I think I'll just try to make it structurally sound in the front (see 10,000,000,000 Questions thread) first. Thnx fr the help everyone.